“So then what is the job of a teacher? Is it to simply transfer knowledge? I think no, that’s not the job of a teacher. There’s other things that can do that. There’s the textbook to do that. […] So then why in the world would these students need me? What would justify my existence in front of them? What can I do? 

“Well actually, I can engage students. I can actually create a learning plan that is engaging; I can create a learning plan that is inviting. So, inviting, or nurturing, or empowering – well, that all required some sort of skill from me. And I [realized that], actually I was designing; I design learning. And now there’s an expertise, if you will.” – Darryl DeBoer

The following transcript has been edited for clarity and brevity. Listen to the full podcast episode here or using the player below.

Michael Arnold: It’s an honor to have Darryl DeBoer with us today in The Teacher’s Lounge. Darryl’s the K-12 Director of Learning at Surrey Christian Schools in Surrey, British Columbia, a Senior Fellow at the Center for Advancement of Christian Education, commonly referred to as CACE, and co-founder and director of Teaching for Transformation, a process that I hope our audience will be able to learn a little bit more about as Darryl and I talk today.

Away from school in all of his free time, you can imagine how much of that he has, you can find Darryl on walks with his dog, cheering on his kids, alongside the soccer field or the ice rinks, or wishing he was fishing.

How much fishing do you get done these days, Darryl? Welcome, by the way.

Darryl DeBoer: Way more wishing than actual fishing. I’m lucky if I get out a couple of times a year, but when I do, it’s pretty awesome.

Michael Arnold: Well, the reason I wanted to talk to you today, and why I’m excited to have you join us is because you say that you’re most passionate about equipping teachers to design real work that meets real needs for real people. You want to help teachers design relevant learning experiences that invite, nurture, and empower students and teachers to play their part within God’s story.

Teachers as educational designers

But I wanted to begin with the question of, you know, as we get to know you and hear about your work, what drives you to focus on the teacher as the educational designer? As opposed to some other ways to see teachers, maybe as a facilitator or a classroom manager, or other kinds of philosophical perspectives. Teacher as designer. Tell us about that.

Darryl DeBoer: Yeah, I think how I ended up there is a little bit of my own journey.

So I was trained as a science – biology and chemistry – secondary teacher. And when I was in the beginning of my teaching career, that made a lot of sense. I actually identified myself as a scientist as well. I had done research throughout my undergrad and my teaching degree, and then even in my first couple years of teaching, I would still go back to research in the summertime.

So I was a scientist, and I was a science teacher. But then as time marched on, I let go of these research positions and, you know, 10 years pass and 12 years pass and I’m like, okay, I’m a science teacher, but I’m not connected to science anymore. And so teacher became bigger and science became smaller.

And then I said, well, okay, what does it mean now to be a teacher? And how do I grow in that? And I just found myself heading in the direction of designing learning experiences. Well what does the teacher do? They design learning experiences.

So I think that’s kind of the natural evolution of how I went there. It was my diminishing connection to science, and then trying to figure out a new identity as a science teacher.

Michael Arnold: What would you say to someone who says, well, that might be your experience – that’s your take on teaching, but not all teachers should be designers? In other words, why is that kind of a global approach? And I think it’s one of the themes of Teaching for Transformation as well, which we want to talk about, but you know, what makes that true for all teachers?

Darryl DeBoer: Well, I think part of my thinking around that was philosophical in nature in the sense of like, especially as a secondary teacher, this idea of having expertise. I’m not an expert in science anymore, and it really pained me to say that and, you know, truth be told, I don’t think I ever was. I just happened to know a lot about grizzly bears and really enjoyed following them around.

So then what is the job of a teacher? Is it to simply transfer knowledge? I think no, that’s not the job of a teacher. There’s other things that can do that, you know, and that’s secondary, right? There’s the textbook to do that. If you really want to, you don’t need me. So then why in the world would these students need me? What would justify my existence in front of them? What can I do?

Well, actually I can engage students. And so I can actually create a learning plan that is engaging. I can create a learning plan that is inviting. So, inviting, or nurturing, or empowering – well, that all required some sort of skill from me. And I was trying to like, again, circling, circling, well, actually designing; I design learning. And now there’s an expertise, if you will.

And as secondary teachers, we do pride ourselves on some level of expertise. And actually I can grow in that. It’s a skill, and I can continue learning in that. Like I am a professional and I can pursue the skill of designing and grow in that. And within a Christian school, I can grow in my expertise of design, of creating this learning plan, or designing this learning plan that lives into our mission and vision.

So I think I’m passionate about it because I can grow in that area. I think it’s compelling to connect to the mission and vision. I don’t think it just happens by itself, and there’s a professional responsibility attached to it. I don’t know if everyone needs to buy into that, but I know for myself and for the teachers I work with, yeah, we can get really excited about that and you can watch your own growth in those areas.

Michael Arnold: How do you go about inviting other teachers to that pursuit? I like that word; you can pursue expertise and growth. How do you invite them into that? How do you help them make that, maybe it’s a philosophical shift, or maybe it’s a dawning realization?

Darryl DeBoer: I think you’ve kind of got to come at it in a couple of ways.

One is asking the big question: What is the role of the teacher? Like we all imagined ourselves as teachers usually quite early in age. Like I have a daughter who started picturing herself as a teacher at six years old. I saw it happen. You almost have to go back to, and for my daughter’s case, one day if she does become a teacher, she’s in ninth grade right now, like if someone’s gonna help her re-imagine what it means to be a teacher, she’s going to have to revisit her six-year-old imagination of what it meant to be a teacher. Right? So our identity as teacher is very rooted.

So we do have to go there, but I also think part of connecting with other educators around this is also showing what this can look like, what an emphasis on the design of a lesson or a learning plan can look like. We need models to see what this looks like.

So yes, you do have to visit that philosophical piece, but you also have to kind of get very practical and show what this looks like to capture someone’s imagination.

What is Teaching for Transformation (TfT)?

Michael Arnold: And is Teaching for Transformation the practical outgrowth of that? Or where does Teaching for Transformation come into that?

Darryl DeBoer: Yeah. So I think a big driver for this framework of designing learning that we call Teaching for Transformation has been trying to design a professional growth approach, a program for a school, a framework for teachers to use, that gives us universal language to talk about our craft.

Like one of the things that used to excite me the most and perplexed me the most is: being part of pre-K to Grade 12 schools, how can we have professional development around designing learning that has both my first-grade teacher and my 12th-grade physics teacher at the same table, talking about this profession that we do. And so design actually allows us to get into that. We can come up with common design elements for engaging learning experiences that translate in Grade 1 and translate in Grade 12 physics. So that’s been a big driver of TfT, the common vocabulary, common practices that all teachers within a Christian school can rally around together and go in the same direction.

Michael Arnold: But Teaching for Transformation is more than just professional development. How would you unpack the essence of Teaching for Transformation for someone who may not be familiar with it?

Darryl DeBoer: You know, at the very core, Teaching for Transformation is bringing practices into your design of learning experiences, into your classroom, that enable and empower yourself and the students to see how this learning fits within God’s story.

We use the language, “See the story, live the story.” So the design principles of TfT are meant to do both to see the story that we’re part of – the teacher, because if the teacher can’t see how their learning and their classroom fits God’s story, well then, it’s pretty hard to invite the student to see that; so we want to be able to see the story that we’re part of, how this learning fits the big narrative that we are part of – and then we also want to empower our students to not just see the story, but to actually play their part within God’s story.

And what I love about TfT is, of course this is beyond graduation and when they’re in their twenties and thirties and forties, but TFT says, not just later, actually now. Grade 2 teachers, you have important work, your students have important work to do in God’s story right here, right now. How can we design learning so that they’re playing their part in God’s story?

Michael Arnold: Wow. So there’s so much to unpack there. I know as we have worked with you at Curriculum Trak, just to try to hopefully develop some tools within Curriculum Trak that would support schools in the TFT journey. I’ve been amazed at just all of the pedagogical practices that can be incorporated into the big best practices, cutting edge practices, things that a lot of schools are a little bit scary to venture into, perhaps because it’s not for the faint of heart, is it? It’s not the flavor of the month kind of thing. Tell me a little bit about some of the big practices that you would see filtering into the TfT journey at a school.

Darryl DeBoer: Yeah, I think at the end of the day, the goal is never Teaching for Transformation, actually, Teaching for Transformation is not the North Star, the target – it helps us in the journey. So then what is the goal? And for Christian schools, you’re guided by your mission and your vision statements, right?

So, in most schools, mission statements, vision statements, core values, founding documents, whatever language you want to use around here, they recognize two things. One, it’s a recognition of the student, the learner as these image-bearers, these kingdom builders. There’s a discipleship element that most Christian schools’ mission statement talks about.

But then there’s also this element about learning, because this is a school. So the mission statements are both discipleship and learners.

So TfT has developed its core practices within that recognition that indeed Christian schools are about the shaping of a particular type of human, the creating of desires, the orienting towards this God’s kingdom piece, and about forming a lifelong learner. So we keep those two things. We hold them together. And sometimes we often hear Christian schools almost have to decide, well, are we about discipleship or are we about really good learning? And well, actually, let’s choose both. We don’t need to decide between one or the other. Let’s go about both.

So, our core practices, first and foremost, are rooted in that dual recognition of the purpose of a Christian school.

Michael Arnold: So what influences do you see kind of feeding into this whole TfT journey? It seems like there’s elements of project-based learning, expeditionary learning, depths of knowledge. There’s some of these big terms that get thrown around a lot, but it’s all in the context of a practical tool, practical process. I don’t know if you want to unpack some of those.

Darryl DeBoer: Yeah. So TfT, I think, has been informed by a number of practices out there. I think the umbrella language of Deeper Learning has been a significant part of the TfT journey. And so project-based learning or EL education. These would be approaches to learning that have been shaped by Deeper Learning and contribute to the definition of Deeper Learning. So we definitely have paid attention to those approaches, because at the end of the day, those two examples, they bring to the table just highly engaging learning experiences for students.

So if we have this wonderful story within Christian education, wouldn’t it be a shame if we miss the learners because the teaching that we’re creating, the learning experiences we’re creating, just weren’t all that engaging for the students? Even if it was going to be a wonderful story, we didn’t invite them into that learning. So yeah, we have, I think, borrowed, heavily leaned on Deeper Learning approaches.

Tim Van Soelen, our executive director at CACE, uses the language of “next practices,” which I really like because education is research-based and it’s always growing and evolving. We’re learning new things about the brain. We’re learning new things about behavior and students and learning. So yeah, what are the next practices that we can incorporate into TfT?

So when we invite schools and teachers into a TfT journey, I think teachers do come to appreciate that TfT is bringing in research and practices that enable them to be empowered, to be on about the things that they know they need to be on about, that they need to be bringing into the practice, because they hear it out there. They’re just not sure, how do I get these things into my practice, into my teaching?

So TfT is one tool that will incorporate them into the frameworks that, when you build the framework in your everyday teaching, you can rest assured that you’re bringing in some of the new research around learning, while chasing the promises of your mission and vision. So again, you don’t choose one or the other, but as I do this, I accomplish both.

Michael Arnold: That’s great. I’m just thinking about the contrast between, I like that phrase, “next practices,” and the idea of storytelling, which is as old as humanity, right? The story of humanity, God’s story, Jesus using stories to invite people in, inviting students to see themselves as part of God’s story. Unpack that a little bit more if you don’t mind.

Darryl DeBoer: Yeah. We believe that we’re story-formed people, that narrative helps us make sense of information. Those things that are good, those things that are less than good, those things that are beautiful. Like how do we determine all these things? We believe it’s story that shapes this for us.

So the core practice of Storyline within Teaching for Transformation – we have three core practices, but the first one that we normally invite teachers into is called Storyline, and the purpose of Storyline is to create for each classroom a tagline, if you will, that sits there.

So maybe the tagline, I know at Surrey Christian School, one of the taglines is “Noteworthy to God.” And so that is the storyline for this particular class. And what “Noteworthy to God” does is two things. One, it grabs onto the story that we’re part of, that God has made all things, and it is delightful and beautiful, but there is brokenness, but because of the invitation from the cross, we’ve been invited to partner in the making of all things new again. So that’s the story that grabs onto it. And then the other thing that this tagline does is grabs onto the learners and the curriculum and drags them into God’s story so that when we study socials, when we study science, we can be asking a couple questions about, well, what about this topic is noteworthy to God? What about this topic invites us to be noteworthy to God, and how we engage this topic, how we study this topic, what can we do? Because sometimes this topic has broken us and it’s not how it intended to be. It’s actually not noteworthy, but what role can we play to make it noteworthy to God?

So you can see how this storyline can grab the learner and the learning, and pull them into God’s story. And if we are learning within the context of this grand narrative that we are part of, we can now make sense of the little stories that we’re encountering in our socials and science and English, but we don’t get to make sense of the little stories unless we know the big story that gives the grand context to this. How is this beautiful? Where is there brokenness? What part can we play in making this whole again, as someone who’s been invited into this through the work of the cross.

Michael Arnold: Yeah. Wow. That sounds amazing. Noteworthy to God; compelling, inviting, relevant for today, with lifetime takeaways.

The journey of becoming a TfT school

I think, and you can correct me if I’m wrong here, but it’s safe to say that a school shouldn’t embark on a TfT journey unless they really want to drive real change in their instructional practices. Tell me if you agree with that, and then unpack the process; what does the process look like for a TfT journey at a school?

Darryl DeBoer: Yeah, I think what you’re getting at, too, Michael is, I think we did acknowledge that maybe some of the ways we’ve been doing professional development have not led to long-term sustained change.

And teachers will speak to this quite quickly, right? They’ll talk, well, we used to be on about this, but what happened to that? Or we used to do this, but now we do this, you know, and their arms move like a pendulum. And teachers grow tired of that. Like, okay, here’s the next idea? You know what, I’m going to sit tight, because this pendulum is going this way, but rest assured two years from now it’s going to be right back where I am right now.

Michael Arnold: And you have those older educators who are kind of jaded. It’s like, I’ve been through this before, this will pass, right? I’ll just, you know, buckle up and keep doing the same thing I’ve always done.

Darryl DeBoer: Yeah, because, like the students themselves, when they walk into our classrooms, they have to figure out the systems. What does it mean to be a student in this classroom? What role do I play here? What’s important to this teacher? What’s not important? Teachers also do that in terms of schools. They come to a school; what’s important at this school? What role do I play? Who do I need to be? So I think, you know, for a lot of schools, broken professional development has shaped teachers to think what they think for very good reasons.

So when we talk about TfT, we use the language of a journey, and when we engage schools on the possibilities of TfT, we talk multi-year journey, like there’s an initial three-year implementation, of getting this framework in place. And then we start talking about years four or five, six of the deepening years, because we need to align our assessment practices. We need to align how we communicate learning to our parents. You know, report cards; do they still make sense? Or what should a report card, if that’s the language you use, include in the context of how we’re teaching and learning?

We spend a lot of time with schools helping imagine a journey in which, three years from now, we’re still on the same thing, but just at a different point in the journey, but we’re building on the early steps. We’re not discarding the early steps. We’re not saying that’s no longer relevant anymore. We learned something different. We just keep building – I used the metaphor of a tree and, you know, ring one, ring two, ring three, ring four; and, you know, the latest ring is where the new growth is happening. That’s where trees grow, or around those latest rings. However, it’s built on the strength of the earlier rings. So there’s no pendulum going anywhere. We’re just building on this core that we’ve started. And this is a multi-year movement because education is research-based. We are learning new things.

So when schools start a TfT journey, by year four, they’re going to have layers being added on that we didn’t know when they were in year one. Schools consistently talk about that. It’s one of the best things about TfT; it’s one of the most infuriating things about TFT. Like, what! Did that change? Where’d this come from while we’re just learning this?

Michael Arnold: Yeah. So it’s a multi-year journey. How many schools would you say you work with, or have on this journey at different phases at this point?

Darryl DeBoer: Yeah, throughout the US, for CACE we have about 70 schools that are on TfT journeys at this moment. About seven years ago, we were with two schools. So over the last seven years, we’ve gone from two to 70.

One of the things that most excites me about TfT right now is actually the power of the network. We host things for schools now, where a first grade teacher from New Mexico can come together with another first grade teacher from Michigan and another one from Tennessee and another one from Washington. And they’re using the same language to design their learning experiences. So when we come together over Zoom or on screen, when we say Storyline, they know the practice of Storyline; we say Throughlines, they know the practice of Throughlines, and Formational Learning Experiences.

And so they’re designing learning, in a similar way, with the same language and same tools, and they can just share ideas and well, what do you do about this? What do you do in science? What do you do in socials? So it’s getting very exciting to watch the network now support each other and amplify the energy of what’s happening in the classrooms.

Michael Arnold: Yeah, I know you’re pretty pretty hands-on when it comes to that network and trying to promote those stories and encourage people to network and collaborate among your network.

Stories from Teaching for Transformation

What results have you seen come about maybe professionally or in the students as a result of some of these processes? Do you have any stories that we can celebrate?

Darryl DeBoer: Yeah, we have a team of “school designers” for our team of of CACE TfT folks. So they’re the ones that are on the ground, partnering with the schools, coming in and leading the professional development for these schools. So they’re constantly coming up face-to-face with the classroom story. So our school designers, they’re there consistently sharing the stories that they’re hearing as they’re encountering them, as they’re so celebrating them at the school level. And then we try to bring them forward to the network, either by the website or a bulletin that goes out every two weeks that shares elementary and secondary TfT stories.

I think I’ll just use maybe three examples that we’re celebrating right now in our TfT bulletin that’s going to come out next week. One example is eighth grade infotech class. At Surrey Christian School, the teacher Mike Jonker invited his eighth grade students to reach out to the community and ask, who would like websites designed?

And so these eighth graders actually have designed nine websites. They worked in teams of three, and they designed nine websites for community members that said, oh man, I’d love to have a website. And so they’ve launched them all. And actually, some of these eighth graders are actually contracted to keep these websites working and refreshed.

That’s one story. Second story that we’re sharing right now is COVID-related. Listen, right now, restaurants are having a hard time during COVID because folks can’t come in – this was earlier in the pandemic, from last year, but we’re just getting the story out now – so restaurants were experiencing, just tough to get the customers. And so the Grade 2s decided they’re going to take it on to advertise the local restaurants and encourage people to still take takeout. So they went and found out all the great things about the local restaurants and created these posters that advertise the local restaurants and encourage the community to continue supporting them.

So the Grade 2-ers had to do some deep opinion writing to convince people as to why you should support this restaurant, and create these posters. So again, just a lovely story of how these second graders are playing an important role in the building of community during such a hard time.

We know there’s so many things in place with COVID that broke down community, but these second graders had important work to do, and they were doing that work.

Michael Arnold: My daughter’s in second grade and she’s a picky eater, and she’s got strong opinions. So I’m just imagining what that would be like for her trying to promote local restaurants. That’s awesome. Something I can get behind.

Darryl DeBoer: It’s delightful, right?

Michael Arnold: It is.

Darryl DeBoer: What I love about this. Like both – you know, the second, like really? Second graders doing this? Right? And you can imagine how the restaurants appreciated knowing that their restaurant is being promoted throughout the community. And the kids had to get to know the restaurant, right?

Michael Arnold: Yeah.

Darryl DeBoer: But man, Grade 2s can do this? And then eighth graders creating these websites for people that, like, the testimonies, like I’ve always wanted a website, I didn’t know what to do, I didn’t know where to go. Well, this eighth grader, they can do this. So I think that’s one of the beautiful things. Yes, our work matters. Yes, our work contributes to the community. Yes, our work will live on beyond the courses done, but the students get an understanding that actually I have important work to do, that my work matters. Right?

And you can imagine, if you’re part of a school that’s designing learning in this way and you’re receiving that message year after year after year. One, you’re coming out, equipped and confident, but two, like this work is of service to the community. It’s beyond self. So we’re giving students opportunities to practice a way of being that is of the serving nature, or this kingdom way of building.

And year after year, I get to practice that. And when I practice this, my desire for that grows, so schools have some level of confidence that they’re keeping, you know, and now we go back to the school’s mission and vision. And 9 times out of 10, their mission and vision would use language that describes that type of student. But now we have confidence that we’re designing learning that aligns with the language of our mission and vision.

Michael Arnold: Yeah, that’s great. You said you had a third?.

Darryl DeBoer: The third one I share is, we talk about this all the time that, you know, Teaching for Transformation, yes, it’s about designing these learning experiences for students, but actually it operates at the teacher level as well. We sometimes say, teaching for transformation comes from teaching from transformation.

So it actually, so we’re very intentional about naming that it’s not just a journey for the students. It’s a journey for teachers as well. And so the other story that we’re sharing in this week’s bulletin is, a staff from one of our schools in Grand Rapids, they went and experienced their own field work and they, as a staff, went on a two-day learning expedition themselves that was about their own learning journey and growth in certain areas.

And so TfT played a role in the design of that learning experience. We talked about field work versus a field trip. So field work – scientists do science, historians do history, writers write, right? So we’re going to go do work. But anyways, TfT principles of experiencing learning that shapes you was used to design this learning experience for teachers. So they also experience it in such a way so that when they come back to their classroom, they can go on and design it because they’ve experienced it as learners.

And so this staff from Livingstone’s took a trip down to, they were in Grand Rapids, took a trip to Memphis, and did their personal exploration.

Michael Arnold: That’s awesome. So you engage with educators as an educator. You’re a teacher, but you’re also a parent. You referenced your daughter earlier. How many kids do you have?

Darryl DeBoer: Yeah, three of them, eleventh, ninth, and seventh grade.

Michael Arnold: Okay, so all over the school. I just want you to get a little bit personal, to the degree that you wanted to; how have you seen your kids benefit from this TfT journey? Any stories you want to share about that?

Darryl DeBoer: Yeah, you know, so what kind of drives me within my role is, what kind of learning do I want my kids to experience? It’s highly motivating to have your own children in your school, when you have the privilege of shaping learning within your school.

You know, over and over again, when the kids are talking about school – what we’ve always known to be true about school is, relationships matter, right? Like at the end of the day, the kids, my kids, every kid wants to be known. They want to know their teacher likes them. They want to be in relationship, right? So that’s been true. And I think Christian schools have done that; you’ll hear that from Christian school families all the time, they talk about the community of school. And it comes down to this, to be known, and quite frankly, Christian schools do a great job with that. So I just want to start with that because that is what matters to kids, first and foremost. And unless you have this foundation of being known, it’s then harder to be invited into this deeper learning experience where you can take risks and put yourself out there, right? So you’d need to build on this foundation of being known. So kids talk about relationships, teachers, all the time.

But then when they talk about the learning, they are talking about this stuff where they get to practice putting their learning in action. What gets them super excited is when they got to go and do field work, when they had an expert come in from the community, when they were doing the second draft of something, because I know I need a high quality piece of work here because it’s going to go out into the community. That’s when they get that good type of nervous as well. Right? Like we see it as parents. Like what’s the stuff that they’re working on at home the most, or with the greatest amount of joy, is when their work is going to matter beyond, versus, here’s something for my teacher to handle. Why are you doing this? Well, because I have to do this and hand it in to my teacher. What’s going to happen to it? I’m not sure, but as soon as I hand it in, I’m done with it.

So yeah, we see those things at play with our kids all the time.

More information about TfT

Michael Arnold: That’s great. So how can people learn more about Teaching for Transformation?

Darryl DeBoer: Yeah, I think the easiest would be go to the website teachingfortransformation.org. You’ll find the core practices explained way better than I  attempted to do here today. You’ll find learning examples and learning stories on the website. I’d go click around on the website. My email’s there, darryl.deboer@cace.org. If you want to reach out, I’m happy to connect with people and talk about TfT.

Michael Arnold: Yeah, we didn’t even mention Throughlines and habits of learning, I think that’s a powerful piece and there’s so much more to unpack with TfT. I mean, go ahead if you want to share anything about that, but I think as I learn more and more about Teaching for Transformation, I’m like, yes, let’s do this. And so I can’t recommend it enough.

Darryl DeBoer: Yeah. There is so much more, but briefly, Throughlines – we sometimes call them habits of living: community-building, servant working, idolatry discerning, there’s about 10 of them. And then habits of learning. Habits of living, habits of learning, habits of living, habits of learning. Again, I’ll go back to our school’s mission and vision because they probably speak of both. And so these two practices allow teachers to design opportunities for our students to practice this way of being: I’m not going to talk about serving, working; I am going to be a servant worker. I’m not going to just talk about being a community builder. I will build community. So we want students to practice these ways of being.

Michael Arnold: Yeah, so rich. And I know we’re just about out of time here, Darryl, but you’re a CACE fellow; anything you want to share with us about that, for people who don’t know? What is CACE, how can it be helpful to the broader Christian school community?

Darryl DeBoer: Yeah CACE, so Center for Advancement of Christian Education. We’re located out of Dordt University in Northwest Iowa. And, um, we have a team of, we have executive director, Tim Van Soelen, and then we have a team of fellows, senior fellows that work for CACE. And we kind of cover the spectrum of the things that Christian schools are about, whether it’s teaching and learning, whether it’s development, recruiting. We have people in place that allow CACE to partner with schools and basically, you know, from strategic planning to designing learning the next day, we kind of cover the spectrum of things at Christian schools. We’d love to partner with you.

Michael Arnold: Well, Darryl, I always enjoy our conversations. So thank you for your time today. It’s been an honor for me to get to know you better over the last several months that we’ve been working together. And I know that what you share today will be helpful to others in our network.

So thank you for taking the time. I appreciate your influence in Christian education. Thank you.